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Hmm, can't say I've ever been accused of THAT before!

However, having read the Wikipedia exposition on autodidaction, I must conclude that I am in fact self-taught, if one indeed accepts that definition, despite my former strident assertion.

This line in particular is telling: " Autodidacticism is a contemplative, absorptive procession. Some autodidacts spend a great deal of time reviewing the resources of libraries and educational websites."

I spent little or no time on the internet. I didn't know how to use it, and was deriving great satisfaction from the hands on in my little workshop, and talking to the carpenters who were giving me advice and suggestion on how to accomplish tasks that seemed almost impossible.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Ohh eye Frank n that were a looxury, why i remember when things were toof, why we ad no fingernails cos we ad no fingers n all, we used t av t borrow em n pay f privlidge.

Steve

Quite a difference between self taught and self discovery through experience of trial and error..........!!
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

That's how we use the term over here too, and I also often get into discussions on how the information age is changing the implications of the term, for this craft and others. The wealth of information may have changed the game, but what has not changed is that you still need a lot of practice to get really good. Whether you do that in your own shop, or somewhere else under the guidance of a tutor, the number of hours you spend actually practicing the craft matters. I don't know if it's 10 000 hours, as one theory states, or some other number, but its a lot! I believe the source of the guidance is less important (formal / self study), but no doubt the better your information is, the more effective those hours of practice will be.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I don't have much to contribute on this discussion, but am thoroughly enjoying the comments of all the builders. When people look at my guitars, and ask, half unbelievingly, if I built 'that', I usually tell them, " it's not as complicated as it looks." I guess, if the pursuit of a great sound were considered, I could truthfully tell them, " It's a lot more complicated than it looks."

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 4

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Under Compensated Nut!

Tell me about it. I'm 47 and I've only been at this thing for the last 15-20 years, and the more I learn, the less I seem to know. Arghhh, I hate to think how little I will know by the time I retire!

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Short answer Yes , However in this day and age taking into consideration all the exhaustive comments already made , It is VERY RARE . The Majority of us are "self teaching" with the aid of what others have already done .

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

An interesting concept, I have read, used and disseminated information from various sources from the time I became aware. I have hordes of people to thanks. The list is endless. Is it not understood or just plain common sense that we have all partaken in fields of knowledge. It is what we “do” with that knowledge that counts.

I have several books and other literature on the subject of stringed instruments, their structure and design. I have used many of the ideas there in. Do I knowingly give credit to those authors? No. However, maybe I should. The verdict is still out on how.

Do I need to credit those authors, Irving Sloane, David Russell Young, David Brosnac, et., by stating simple that I have read and studied the greats and have used their ideas to build this instrument you now hold in your hands. Or do I say I have been taught by the greats and you now hold the results for their efforts. Two very different statements yet they are both somewhat misleading. Todd, I believe you have presented us with a double edged sword.

Self taught, no, however, I do say for the most part I’m self learnt.

1. No.
2. No, but yes thank you, Irving Sloane, David Russell Young, David Brosnac, with special thanks to my high school shop teacher and the members of OLF, et.. I will always remain indebted.

Sincerely,

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

It was a thought I peppered thoroughly with qualifiers so as not to be a pure accusation. "seems"..."perhaps"...ect. You emphasized words that made the post read as if you react negatively to claims of being "self taught"...as if there were a great deal of thought and opinion behind your assertions. I think some of those thoughts and opinions attempt to define the term "self taught" too narrowly.

I DO see some builders that are pretty rigid about sourcing their influences. I wonder sometimes at what point they will begin to take credit for the work of their own hands. Statements crediting mentors are almost always innocuous. Showing humble respect for a teacher IS a good thing. Other statements, however, seem to be out of balance and obsessive about the issue.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

OUCH! I'm 69 and just getting a good start! How little will I know by the time I can't hold a tool any more? It could be any day now!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Common Waddy, don't go be babblin on about things you don't be wantin.

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.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Ain't that the truth!

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Thanks for the clarification.

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

I am not luthier, (by all means, i am looking to build my own guitar at some point, and was pointed here by someone i got talking to, who used to be a luthier) but i can come from some other perspectives from what i do know.

people can claim to be self taught (ie figuring it all out on their own) but coming from where i have, there will always be some influence from someone somewhere, whether it is a youtube video, a book, someone giving you a tip, you only know that knowledge because you have gone to someone else.
some could argue that is being self taught, but where would anyone be if they did not have someone there for guidance?

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Into the orchard i walk, Peering way past the gate
Wilted scenes for us who couldn't wait
Drained by the coldest caress, Stalking shadows ahead
Halo of death all i see is departure,
Mourners lament but its me who's the Martyr

After reading all the answers. I found out I really don/thave one . As I learned from sooo many different sources ,Woodworking school , teaching, books, other students, other loofiers, videos, dvd/s tapes lots of practice. Loofier schools etc etc.

Although the question itself is flawed in its generality, it could be said that all things are "self-taught".
We can witness demonstrations, conceptualise theoretical precedents, or be guided hand-over-hand to reach an outcome but the fact of the matter is that all learning is the result of what we choose to (or are able to) absorb/acquire based upon what we have previously learned and how it relates to our understanding at that time. Even invention and discovery are related to prior knowledge.
So in the purest sense I would argue that every skill we possess is "self-taught".
With regard to what I believe the vague question is actually asking, I would argue that if you saw a guitar and decided to have a crack at making one and did so, then you are a self taught crafts-person (depending on whether the outcome produced a playable instrument or a collection of woods and components that form an unplayable sculpture.) If it is the latter then you are a self-taught sculptor...to which the definition of "craftsman" opens another can of philosophical worms.

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I've got a mind like a steel......whatsername!!?

only some kind of an a** hole would care about pedigree; if you can't tell a great guitar from some run of the mill instrument, then it is your problem; the history of it's construction ought to play zero part in the valuation of it.....

What if one were guided by another who fundamentally taught you the ropes via the internet? Robbie's vids are expert guidance IMHO.

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I've got a mind like a steel......whatsername!!?

As far as woodworking, No, not really. Wood working runs in my family at an almost genetic level. Not everyone got the gene but those of us who did just took to it with little explanation. That said, I did apprentice with various teachers early in my career, none were the traditional apprenticeship arrangements and most of them were only offered to me because of my family name and who I was related too. Years ago, when there were more of us, the Howard name meant a fair bit as far as carpentry and cabinetry in this valley. I am the last of them......

Guitars, Yes. When I first tried this game in the late 80's there was nothing to learn from. The only guy in the area who new how to refret (and he was a bit of a hack) wouldn't show any one anything. Told me once he'd let me sweep up for $5 an hour.....that was to be me paying him! And he was serious....they were trade secrets. So I think I ruined 3 guitars including a decent Les Paul (all mine) Learning to re-fret. I knew how to play so figuring out how to set one up was fairly easy. When it came to building my first guitars, which were electric, I quickly discovered how much I not only didn't know but never even thought of. All the geometry, the relationship of parts to themselves as well as to the player. and on and on. My wood work was good,Ii already new how to apply finishes, but those guitars sucked! there I said it. None were ever truly playable. When we moved 11 years ago I cut them all up and we had a ceremonial cremation for them. I had swore some years earlier that I was never going to build another @#$% guitar as long as I lived........so here I am.

I think I need help..........

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Brian , if you need help. you could find a 12 step program for reforming luthiers.i.e. luthiers who need to or want to break the vicious cycle of addictive building, that seems to consume our lives. Being fully addicted, it has become a full time preoccupation, and I have just come to accept it.

Q - Can any craftsman claim to be self-taught?

AFH (answer for Hesh....) - dunno but as for me the answer is clearly no, I am not self-taught. More specifically I like to consider my own Lutherie journey as so far being three phases.

Phase one - bought a Stew-Mac Dreadn*ught kit and went at it. The instructions (both book form and VHS tape (had to go find a VHS player since the format was already dead when I bought the kit...)) <==== note nested loop too, er I am digressing.... Anyway for my kit building I had instruction be it written and video and as such in phase one I was not self-taught.

Phase two - had built 4 - 5 guitars and then one evening while looking at, er.... browsing the Internet I had the bright idea to Google "guitar building" and found what my friend the Padma would call Dis here forum. To my surprise it was a bunch of guys located all over the world who were seemingly all, with very few exceptions, good eggs and very happy to share what they knew. Folks such as Al C. who is still here, Mario X 3 with the "X 3" meaning he was VERY influential to me, Howard Klepper who does not seem to be here anymore, Colin, Dave W, and Russell R. from the UK and all great guys who were also very important to me, Sylvan, Barry Daniels (always has the straight scoop and someone who I always admired greatly), and many, many more who seemingly are no longer here either. Sorry if I left anyone out - there were back then too many guys to mention who all played a huge role in teaching this idiot how to build a stinkin guitar. It was different back then too in that attribution, or saying who taught us the stuff that we now spew at others was common place. I always tried to provide attribution too and realize that it's not always easy to remember since what they say about smoking that stuff as a youth makes one lose their memory but, er.... I forgot what I wanted to say...

Anyway... phase two for me I was NOT self taught either. Moreover many of the very fine folks who once graced this forum including David Collins who I met here but only lived a few miles from me and is now my business partner were VERY influential in my development as a Luthier (and a human being as well...).

Phase three - for me phase three was the doing, the hands on stuff, the building lots of guitars AND the repairing of thousands of guitars. In my "doing" phase forums played a far smaller and seemingly ever diminishing role in my development for a number of reasons. First, I had no time to waste in front of the IMac. Second once in the real-world with my hands in the bowels of a 1936 OOO-18, one owner.... I started to realize that in some cases forum info is very much worth what one pays for it.... It seems that there times when a forum, any forum, has more value to offer than others and this seems to correspond directly with who's participating. Some folks are comfortable sharing, some aren't, some have little to share or have it wrong.... and others have lots to share and can still have it wrong... And some actually can walk the walk and have done so and are worth listening to whenever they speak. Back in the days that I was here often we had lots of the later sort, Industry pros including Rick Turner who told it like it is but also knew the straight scoop and didn't spread Ed Romanish BS.

Even in phase three for me I still hear voices in my head (yeah time for my lithium I guess....) voices such as Dave Collins telling me true up the nut slot first before fitting the bone blank, voices such as Colin who has an appreciation for the idea that guitars are ultimately musical instruments with that purpose in mind and not intended to be dripping in bling but lacking tone and playability. Voices such as Paul Woolson who I think of when approaching a table saw remembering his comments about an unsound practice that was once shared here and could get one hurt. I hear Rick Turner talking about "GLO's" guitar like objects that may look like a guitar but are lacking in all manner of other areas.

My point is that in all three of my phases I was taught by and drew from perhaps hundreds of others and let's not forget the book that I never really liked by Cumpiano which continues to be very useful. It helped me greatly too.

These days my customers teach me things everyday. Although it's not always structural Lutherie stuff it's still important at least to me.

A couple of weeks ago I hung number 52 on the wall and someone decided to take it home a few days later. I still won't build a commission in that I still believe that I simply could not stand to spend 150 hours looking at someone else's idea of a guitar and prefer to build what I like and am interested in. So I build them on occasion when I have time and then hang them and then off they go. Some will, some won't, so what... next. Back in the day on this forum we agonized over things such as minimal glue lines but rarely discussed the user interface - playability or that all too subjective but hugely important goal - TONE...

We see thousands of guitars, mandos, banjos in our repair business too and these days this is where my primary interest is. David Collins taught me the repair business and continues to amaze me on a daily basis. Even one of you guys recently lived in our shop (secretly.... )and was one of our apprentices for a while and will be coming back for more soon. Wonder where he feels he learned more, forums or hands on?

So it should be said that I am still being taught, still learning, and always will be too. Even the day that I die I will likely be looking at the IV needle in my arm and wondering if it is bigger or smaller than the IV needles that I use to get glue under loose braces.

These guys who say give me a book and stay the hell out of my way are not only selling themselves short, in my view, they also will miss out on other ideas, the ideas of others that may be useful clubs to have in one's bag one day, or, should I say arsenal.... so it can be better understood by some....

So to me a person who is self-taught has to have lived in a bubble with no exposure to anyone else, no literature, no forums, no DVDs/VHS/YouTube, no Stew-Mac instruction manuals, no deli sandwiches stuffed in one's face while pretending to be an apprentice on weekends only.... No Mario, no Rick, no David, no Colin, no Barry, no Howard, no Ervin and his books, classes, etc., No Paul W., and none of the plethora of others who were once here who were peers of sorts and also capable of sharing what they learned and didn't hesitate to do so. You can't have even observed the offerings of others in my view as well since lurking at Healsberg taught me a great deal too.

With this said I wonder how anyone could claim to be self-taught but here's something else that comes to my mind as well - why would I even care? I mean unless I'm the sort who is so very competitive that it reaches a toxic level perhaps because of personal insecurities, perhaps not, why would Hesh even care how others learned what they know in the trade. For me all that matters is doing the very best work that I can - always!

Anyway I'm clearly not self-taught and very proud of it too since I consider being exposed to the ideas of others to be a privilege, an honor, a gift, and a leg up as well.

If you really, really, really have a huge love of Lutherie it seems to me that any opportunity to learn is invaluable and worrying about one's ability to never need to attribute anything to anyone else is very much.... off the mark.

PS: I'm still concerned about my own level of attribution here and would also like to thank Robbie, Andy, Serge, and about 1,123,456,345 others who have helped me in the past!

Hesh: Very nicely explained and I must say it expresses a lot of my feelings as well. Nice to see you back here and hope all is well with you and yours. Don't be such a stranger. Take care.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

I/m not as erudite as you hesh, but I read your shtick,and I agree 100% well said an bravo!

Hi Tom and thanks for that as well! I hope that all is well with ya my friend!

I'm debating starting another thread about a change, an event here in the states that is a bit of a god send for we working Luthiers. But the topic is sure, with this bunch and the few here who can't have a conversation without getting political and violating the rules, to go down hill in short order. But if you recall it's been brought up here before many times that one of the impediments to one hanging out a shingle and living the dream.... (being a Luthier full time and then some...) was affordable health insurance.

Frankly I'm not sure that with some here, never most...., that an adult conversation could be had. For me the affordable care act is the most important and welcome thing to be available to me personally in many years. The only sigifigant issue that I could never solve when I nixed the desk job in corporate America and hung out my Loofier shingle was my inability to purchase affordable, QUALITY.... health insurance and now I can AND just did too!!!

As a result our business now exists offering uber-high-quality repair and restoration to our market and lets us provide meaningful work for 5 people. Not having to play Russian roulette and going uninsured is huge for us personally and for me I'm so happy about it I'm about to pull the trigger on a Saw-Stop table saw....

But frankly after lurking here for several years now I suspect that bringing up a change in US law that greatly and directly benefits Loofiers (attribution to Duh Padma) would not stay civil for long so I'll start this thread elsewhere where the biz of Lutherie is more important than taking political pokes at others.

Anyway look for it on Frets if anyone is interested and sorry to the OP, really I am...., for getting off topic here.

Great too hearing from ya Tom my friend!

Thanks Ernie!! You know you and I were never here on the OLF in the same time frame but I have always read your posts since and as we all do learned some things about you (all great stuff) and I am sure that we would be, could be great friends! Thanks for that Ernie!

Shalom Ernie!!!